I think the sentiment of Sabrina catering to a pedophilic gaze mostly comes from things out of her control. Her short face, big eyes and height are all factors that are associated with children. Also her feminine aesthetic doesn’t help, considering femininity is still seen as childish
thank you for such a nuanced take! your mention that micro-managing feminism is not a path to liberation is exactly what i’ve been feeling about this conversation. it’s important to discuss the incessant infantilization of women and the use of that to market women to men, but policing other women’s’ well-intentioned performances of femininity is a dangerous path to go down. femininity is not dangerous, but the bastardization of it is. context is the difference, which you so aptly explored
'policing other women’s’ well-intentioned performances of femininity is a dangerous path to go down. femininity is not dangerous, but the bastardization of it is.' nail, head, hit.
Agreed! And I’m once again struck by the reality that women often are expected to shoulder the burden of our own liberation from a dynamic that men have largely created. I realize it’s a lot more nuanced than that, but I do think there’s some truth there.
Thank you for writing about this! Personally, the only thing that made me pause and consider the argument that Sabrina may be partaking in a pedophilic fantasy was that Lolita reference photo. Besides that, I've never thought that. Like candyiscool said, her physical appearance, particularly her short, thin, less curvy body is the main reason people are accusing her of this. Her face, whether natural aging and makeup or cosmetic enhancements, is clearly adult. This happens to most small women when bigger women accuse men interested in small women of chasing a pedophilic fantasy. A small body isn't inherently childish, a big body isn't inherently adult.
Policing a grown woman’s clothing to avoid ‘catering to the paedophilic gaze’ struck me a kind of twisted because it once again limits women's freedom of expression to avoid being over sexualised by mostly men. In her case it feels like a strange form of body shaming. There is just no way to get it quite right I guess
The key to the pedophilic argument is not to avoid being sexualised by men, the issue is to continue promoting the sexualisation of babified girl traits. The danger is normalizing this to such an extent where girls who are actually innocent and not playing innocent for money purpose are met with men ready to consume them like they consume Sabrina Carpenter.
It's not about limiting her clothing choices.
It's about being conscient of what culture it promotes.
even when we diverge in our thinking, i gotta thank you SO MUCH for complicating the existing substack-sabrina conversation and engaging with my work in such a respectful way ❤️ going to be thinking a lot about all the points you bring up but the schism between boyhood/girlhood, whether vintage/50s aesthetics can ever be separated from their source texts, and the difference between performance and bastardization of femininity will stay on my mind. thank you for your analysis and research and close reading!
(and for the baddies in the comments: i loooove your vintage fits and i love whatever your chosen version of yourself is! AND i reserve my right to critique sabrina carpenter as a brand which capitalizes off of and depends on the fears, hopes, and systemic subjugation of hundreds of thousands of young women. it is hard atp to separate sabrina the woman from sabrina the brand (as most of us don’t know her personally), but know it was not individual women i was critiquing. i luv your outfit probably. ok bye enjoy discourse)
I love this! I love respectful discourse. Jade, even though I didn’t agree with everything you wrote in your piece regarding Sabrina, I fully support your right to critique her as a brand. The distinction between the two (individual woman/brand) is salient. 💗
I do not believe Sabrina acts like her brand acts. I think she and I would get along great. I think I would be irritated and concerned if I knew Sabrina the brand. I don't think I would like Sabrina the brand. I do like Sabrina the person a lot though.
i knew the comment section for this was going to eventually get a little wild but i think the way people are missing the point is a little absurd. when will we stop policing women for expressing femininity, which as the author acknowledges has a muddled history because of .. men. and the way MEN will sexualize anything a woman or girl does. there is a clear difference between someone like that one girl who sold her bath water ( cant remember her name yall sorry) and sabrina who is pulling mostly from a vintage style of womens fashion. one is intentionally trying to profit from what sabrina is being accused of and sabrina is just existing as a shorter curvy woman in vintage apparel. id rather have a convo about lana del rey and her many references to lolita ( with a song named after her) and the real effects that had on myself and other young girls or melanie martinez and her older aesthetic with the diapers and pacifiers, etc.
until the online discourse, i did not see sabrinas current style and think " wow she looks like a child" bc frankly, she doesnt. i havent seen her reference lolita outside of that singular photo which seems to have been a gross and bad direction choice from W mag, the outro where she says the "niña" line is admittedly uncomfortable but i *personally* feel as though she was referring to the way as a 25 year old woman who is shorter etc. she is constantly being infantilized and told she looks like a child, which if youve ever had a shorter friend or are the shorter friend, this is not super odd to hear lol. given that she does the outros in the moment i doubt she had thought about it that far & its understandable to side eye her for that.
there are many other artists that i think rightfully should be called out or discussed when having this discussion about who is trying to pander to a pedo male-gaze audience and this article brings up many of the things that come to my mind when i think of that, and none of whom are sabrina carpenter. all this to say, i read the original article that this one referenced and initially really understood each point made but still felt like something was "off" or didn't resonate as true to me. after talking about this offline with real people in my life we all kind of had a similar opinion and i really love this article can acknowledge both the good points that the original article made but can also share why they feel differently with historical context to explain further rather than using a few snippets of information to push a narrative like the other sort of leaned into. 🤞🏽
I understand that the babydoll dress had a different purpose than what it's seen as today. My problem is that these things have a different reputation now. I think the origins of these things needs to be discussed but I don't believe we should wave them away just because they started out innocent.
its insane that someone who can perfectly describe the infantilization of women and concede that a lot of carpenter's aesthetics are pulled from pedophilic expressions of gender performance will then completely lose the plot at the end.
i found it especially interesting that sabrina carpenter, the sex symbol, the woman who performs sex positions during her concerts and ends the tour off with witty outros about sex is supposedly the popstar dream of a young girl, as if thats supposed to convince people that it isnt a pedophilic performance in nature. furthermore, what "separates carpenter from stars like kate moss and britney spears" arent their ages. thats what separates how exploited they were, but sabrina intentionally plays into nearly the exact same performance they do: she is still performing an expression of youth. She is an adult, yes, but playing into the blurry line between girl and sex object is still playing into that blurry line. She is not "old" by any stretch of the imagination. she *is* ambiguously youthful. she doesnt show signs of age. she is a young adult. she can express her sexuality, but it is undoubtably weird to do it while wearing babydoll dresses and whatnot. she is intentionally referencing that "vintage girlhood", which make no mistake, was designed by film directors and photographers, not real depictions of girls at the time: it was designed to be highly sexualized.
If youre choosing to both present in pink, ribbons, babydoll dress, pigtails, and as *you* say, "traditionally girlish emblems", and perform sex positions and jokes while youre doing that, its going to be taken as pedophilic. theres no way around it.
Stars of the past have turned expressions of femininity into an art, and one way or another that turned into expressions of youthful, girlish femininity either by their own volition or through being exploited. doesnt mean that that art is respectable. art is truly the most powerful piece of propaganda.
I can agree at least with everything youve said up until trying to walk around the issue of sabrina portraying a femininity that has been designed by pedophiles. pink ribbons and bows and frills and innocence up until *teenage years* is not only *not* the default expression of a girls childhood but its also a pretty artificial one.
I agree with you. I don't believe Sabrina to act like this in private or with her friends. I believe this is her alter ego. But the fact she is showcasing this as how the majority of people perceive her as is heavily concerning.
Incredible analysis!!! I love the conversation happening between yours and Jade’s pieces. Both of y’all have brought up incredibly well researched points that point to the complication of femininity, gender, nostalgia and fashion.
It feels like there is absolutely no way to win as a woman in the public eye, especially under capitalism and patriarchy. For millennia, the aesthetic expectations of those designated as non men have always been based on inferiority, control and subjugation.
I don’t know if it’s possible to find an expression of femininity that is untouched by patriarchy, whether it’s leaning in or fully rejecting it. I long to know what girlhood and womanhood might have been if created in a vacuum, untouched by misogyny, pedophilia and white supremacy.
Sabrina looks grown to me and is doing grown woman shit in frilly dresses. If she was actually a child or doing babyish things, I’d be all out guns blazing. The reality is a grey area of agency vs. complicity within gender norms that are ultimately based on sexism.
how often i’ve repressed my own desire for a more girlish, feminine style so as not to cater to the male gaze nor cause an uproar of women berating me for doing just that. where is the middle ground
I really appreciate all the points you cover in this essay! Particularly the comment about how childhood motifs on adult bodies don't always receive equal treatment across the board.
Personally, my observation has been that there is a general disdain (online, at least?) for the signifiers of "hyper-femininity" which, well, tends to include frills and pink and ribbons! I believe this comes from adult women wanting to reject the relentless propaganda that they are only worth their youth by drawing a hard boundary on things that feel caricaturishly youthful. It's interesting, because just as much as people talk about girlhood and nostalgia, there's concurrently an open rejection of things that lean "too far" into girlhood and nostalgia. It's just that not everyone agrees on what counts as "too far" because not everyone wants to give up pink and ruffles just because they've suddenly "aged out" of access.
A few months ago, I put some thought on this when developing my own post on ways that existing alternative fashion subcultures also indulge in "childlike" and hyper-feminine fashion motifs in a way that isn't meant to be self-infantilizing either. My own style falls under this category, andthe added layers of how race impact into who gets to be "dainty" or "soft" make all of this a very nuanced conversation. (Like, in my case, it feels subversive to lean into hyper-femininity as a black woman bc it's *not* the aesthetic that's been historically 'assigned' to me/us. I get that it's not subversive for Sabrina though, but just like I would still want to be respected if I DID lean into the tropes that are associated with my identity, I feel like she deserves that option too?)
Basically, I really agree with the point about micro-managing women's expressions of femininity. I really think that's what is happening here: women are (with good intentions) micro-managing the aesthetics of others and over-policing themselves about what's "okay" and "grown enough" to wear. But this conversation gets tired because there's no true logic to it. People argue that certain hairstyles can be "too grown" just as they argue that pink is coded "too young." Not everyone subscribes to these ideas, and the insinuation that it's weirdo behavior to wanna ignore the contradictory nature of it all to me just seems... silly.
I respect that Sabrina has a defined style she seems content with, and who knows how it'll evolve as her career goes on. Again, I really appreciate what you have added to the conversation around what's problematic and the intense scrutiny women are under when it comes to beauty. So thank you for writing & sharing this!
Sabrina's styling decisions, like you said, are clear references to older popular media. I think what firmly separates her from accusations of 'pedo catering' is the way she carries herself, and her clear control of every aspect of her image. Carpenter is a businessman first, and she doesn't hide her engagement in the writing and production process of everything directly associated with her projects and image. I have a respect for her that I don't have for pop stars like Ariana Grande, who fits herself into the popular mold of the hour, and feigns naïveté in interviews to avoid some level of accountability. Carpenter's styling choices often smash themselves into the realm of camp as well! Her makeup is highly glamorized, her shoes are insanely tall, her outfits are often rhinestoned and paired with shiny dancer's tights. A large part of her public image is a clear performance, influenced by older theater and cinema, and she doesn't pretend like it's natural. Of COURSE it's over the top, often falling into comedy or parody, and that clearly performative aspect of it all is like a wink and a nod to her audience. Femininity is a performance, and she's acting out the childhood pop star fantasy, i agree!
Garbage article because it doesn't mention one time she made a joke in a performance? You skimmed past the 20 paragraphs because it didn't mention this thing she said at one concert, that has nothing to do with the actual subject, that being her branding and public image? Get a grip on yourself. You too Chloe Olivia Aley. Both of you need to behave.
thanks for this. the substack post you referenced definitely rubbed me the wrong way when i first read it, but i couldn't really put my finger on it. you did.
I don't really understand why people are rubbed the wrong way by it. Sabrina has made some very serious and concerning jokes. The nonsense outros for instance.
I guess it depends on the bar you set for pop musicians. I didn’t personally like the Nonsense outros but how is it any different than any other song about sex, drugs, etc that we’ve got in the last several decades of pop music? music has always pushed the envelope when it comes to that stuff. especially most recently, WAP by Cardi B & Megan Thee Stallion.
as this essay said, the Skims campaign and the W mag shoot were a bit sus. I agree with that, especially the sprinkler photo. Men want women to seem youthful and as a result of this being deeply rooted in our culture, women also want to seem youthful and applaud other women for it. but if we want to rally against it there’s much more we have to dismantle than a 25-year-old wearing pastel lingerie and talking about blowjobs.
Sabrina Carpenter is getting flack because she is naturally petite and wide-eyed. i’d be surprised at anyone complaining about it if she were 5’10. take it up with Melanie Martinez’s music circa 2015 if you want something to complain about lol
they’re referring to the outro where she made a comment about looking like a child, though. i didn’t think there was any merit in the criticisms of her until that, which really weirded me out.
“I don’t believe that micro-managing the aesthetics of femininity is a path to liberation. And I find this entire conversation to be slightly annoying.” - ICONIQUE 🫡🫡🫡
No mention of the infamous “I’m full grown but I look like a niña” lyric I see… bad article with a clear motive to make this pedo baiter into a feminist icon when she is most definitely not. Examine her outros and get back to us
did we read the same essay ? where did the author write that sabrina is a feminist icon ? or make any implication of such ? please re-assess the article and re-assess your reading comprehension skills
In the original article, the author does address the bizarreness of Sabrina's choices to emulate a specific aesthetic of 'girlhood' under the male gaze. The author calls into question the sexualization of girlhood and who is really culpable for it. Surely, it is not Sabrina. I'm not focusing on that part of the comment because no where in the essay does the author 'defend' Sabrina's choice. Rather, the article is an analysis of the misappropriation of the conceptual framework of 'the male gaze'. I ask the commenter, and you as well, to re-assess your reading comprehension skills to reflect on how you both got to the conclusion that this is an essay 'defending' Sabrina Carpenter, rather than an essay that provides historical context to this specific aesthetic and how the micro-managing of female aesthetics is problematic in a society that hinges on violence against individuals who are socially-coded as women.
I wrote in another comment that none of us are worried about Sabrina Carpenter as being a victim of pedophilia, she is an adult woman. Instead, many are putting the blame on her as an adult woman instead of holding systems accountable for the sexualization of socially constructed emblems of girlhood. She is playing into the male gaze as the male gaze is inherently infantilizing of women, thus it is unnecessary to construct a 'pedophilic gaze'.
Rather than focus on this as being the point of the article, I am assuming that you and other commenters logic is reduced to being 'concerned' about young girls emulating Carpenter. This falls into the logic of "What was she wearing?", a logic of a patriarchal culture that looks to justify why some feminine coded individuals are 'appealing' whilst evading any culpability for the patriarchal + white supremacist + colonial society that perpetuates this. I hope that clarifies and makes sense to you!
Haha well... All I can say is two things. I actually have a pretty good reading comprehension. You have a poor first impression of me. And even though Sabrina apparently is not trying to sexualize minors by making jokes about minors, people who have not seen her shows or have heard her deep voice have only seen pictures. If I have only seen a picture of Sabrina on stage, I would be a little concerned. Everyone has a different opinion and it is often hard to make that opinion come across correctly online. Again, my reading comprehension is just fine, thank you, I just simply don't agree with you.
I see that you struggled to comprehend the comment I just left, as this is not a matter of opinion on a celebrity but a matter of analyzing society - have a good rest of your day!
I'm not even going to answer you. Haha you just keep jabbing the wound and apparently think I can't comprehend. No, I can, and you obviously can only comprehend a portion of text and not the full text.
You're falling into a misogynistic trap without realising it. She cannot change the fact that she has big eyes and cheeks or that she's 5 feet tall. These are immutable aspects of her body that do give her a certain childlike appearance. Does this mean she's not allowed to express herself sexually as an adult woman? That's stupid.
Also. If you've only seen a picture of her on stage, why would anyone care about your concerns? Do women now need to perfectly aligned with your gaze at all times should they not be "concerning"? Just ridiculous and frankly smacks of jealousy and internalised misogyny and I despise it.
the entire point of the post and this comment explaining it to you has flown way over your head. if you did comprehend it why are you leaving comments making it seem like you don’t understand whatsoever. that is an extremely patriarchal view that women who look a certain way by nature are somehow to blame for perpetuating a pedophilic aesthetic and cause for “concern” simply because they’re short and doe eyed. i suggest you reread both the essay and the above comment because that person took a lot of time to break it down for you.
the entire article expressly states that the author dislikes the idea that sabrina plays into a pedophilic fantasy via her aesthetics. which the author then concedes that some of her aesthetic choices do fall under that category, and yet still they defend her aesthetics as a whole through strange logical and rhetorical inconsistencies. either way, you are still a sockpuppet trying to bully people who disagree with you into feeling like the minority.
oh nope its not outright said. but im not the person who claimed that. you just got really combative at the idea that sabrina does any wrong. we still know youre a sockpuppet.
EXACTLY. im noticing theyre also treating this "vintage girlhood" as if it were a real thing they actually experienced and not an artificially created aesthetic by pedophiles in the 50s. unless they were imitating sex symbols and popstar icons no one naturally experienced the "kittenish pink frilly girlhood". they were just propagandized into really liking it as an aesthetic despite its pedophilic intentions. especially weird to outright say that sabrina carpenter, a person who they themselves admit is a sex symbol, is everyones "girlhood fantasy popstar".
I think the sentiment of Sabrina catering to a pedophilic gaze mostly comes from things out of her control. Her short face, big eyes and height are all factors that are associated with children. Also her feminine aesthetic doesn’t help, considering femininity is still seen as childish
this is ittt
thank you for such a nuanced take! your mention that micro-managing feminism is not a path to liberation is exactly what i’ve been feeling about this conversation. it’s important to discuss the incessant infantilization of women and the use of that to market women to men, but policing other women’s’ well-intentioned performances of femininity is a dangerous path to go down. femininity is not dangerous, but the bastardization of it is. context is the difference, which you so aptly explored
'policing other women’s’ well-intentioned performances of femininity is a dangerous path to go down. femininity is not dangerous, but the bastardization of it is.' nail, head, hit.
Agreed! And I’m once again struck by the reality that women often are expected to shoulder the burden of our own liberation from a dynamic that men have largely created. I realize it’s a lot more nuanced than that, but I do think there’s some truth there.
Thank you for writing about this! Personally, the only thing that made me pause and consider the argument that Sabrina may be partaking in a pedophilic fantasy was that Lolita reference photo. Besides that, I've never thought that. Like candyiscool said, her physical appearance, particularly her short, thin, less curvy body is the main reason people are accusing her of this. Her face, whether natural aging and makeup or cosmetic enhancements, is clearly adult. This happens to most small women when bigger women accuse men interested in small women of chasing a pedophilic fantasy. A small body isn't inherently childish, a big body isn't inherently adult.
Agreed for sure
Policing a grown woman’s clothing to avoid ‘catering to the paedophilic gaze’ struck me a kind of twisted because it once again limits women's freedom of expression to avoid being over sexualised by mostly men. In her case it feels like a strange form of body shaming. There is just no way to get it quite right I guess
The key to the pedophilic argument is not to avoid being sexualised by men, the issue is to continue promoting the sexualisation of babified girl traits. The danger is normalizing this to such an extent where girls who are actually innocent and not playing innocent for money purpose are met with men ready to consume them like they consume Sabrina Carpenter.
It's not about limiting her clothing choices.
It's about being conscient of what culture it promotes.
all i can say is bravo!
even when we diverge in our thinking, i gotta thank you SO MUCH for complicating the existing substack-sabrina conversation and engaging with my work in such a respectful way ❤️ going to be thinking a lot about all the points you bring up but the schism between boyhood/girlhood, whether vintage/50s aesthetics can ever be separated from their source texts, and the difference between performance and bastardization of femininity will stay on my mind. thank you for your analysis and research and close reading!
(and for the baddies in the comments: i loooove your vintage fits and i love whatever your chosen version of yourself is! AND i reserve my right to critique sabrina carpenter as a brand which capitalizes off of and depends on the fears, hopes, and systemic subjugation of hundreds of thousands of young women. it is hard atp to separate sabrina the woman from sabrina the brand (as most of us don’t know her personally), but know it was not individual women i was critiquing. i luv your outfit probably. ok bye enjoy discourse)
I love this! I love respectful discourse. Jade, even though I didn’t agree with everything you wrote in your piece regarding Sabrina, I fully support your right to critique her as a brand. The distinction between the two (individual woman/brand) is salient. 💗
thank you jenovia <3 appreciate everyone here thinking together about all these things—all bigger than sabrina, hence why we care!
YES! 🎯💕
Her brand is sabrina's alter ego. Sabrina as a person I do not believe acts like her brand.
I do not believe Sabrina acts like her brand acts. I think she and I would get along great. I think I would be irritated and concerned if I knew Sabrina the brand. I don't think I would like Sabrina the brand. I do like Sabrina the person a lot though.
i knew the comment section for this was going to eventually get a little wild but i think the way people are missing the point is a little absurd. when will we stop policing women for expressing femininity, which as the author acknowledges has a muddled history because of .. men. and the way MEN will sexualize anything a woman or girl does. there is a clear difference between someone like that one girl who sold her bath water ( cant remember her name yall sorry) and sabrina who is pulling mostly from a vintage style of womens fashion. one is intentionally trying to profit from what sabrina is being accused of and sabrina is just existing as a shorter curvy woman in vintage apparel. id rather have a convo about lana del rey and her many references to lolita ( with a song named after her) and the real effects that had on myself and other young girls or melanie martinez and her older aesthetic with the diapers and pacifiers, etc.
until the online discourse, i did not see sabrinas current style and think " wow she looks like a child" bc frankly, she doesnt. i havent seen her reference lolita outside of that singular photo which seems to have been a gross and bad direction choice from W mag, the outro where she says the "niña" line is admittedly uncomfortable but i *personally* feel as though she was referring to the way as a 25 year old woman who is shorter etc. she is constantly being infantilized and told she looks like a child, which if youve ever had a shorter friend or are the shorter friend, this is not super odd to hear lol. given that she does the outros in the moment i doubt she had thought about it that far & its understandable to side eye her for that.
there are many other artists that i think rightfully should be called out or discussed when having this discussion about who is trying to pander to a pedo male-gaze audience and this article brings up many of the things that come to my mind when i think of that, and none of whom are sabrina carpenter. all this to say, i read the original article that this one referenced and initially really understood each point made but still felt like something was "off" or didn't resonate as true to me. after talking about this offline with real people in my life we all kind of had a similar opinion and i really love this article can acknowledge both the good points that the original article made but can also share why they feel differently with historical context to explain further rather than using a few snippets of information to push a narrative like the other sort of leaned into. 🤞🏽
I understand that the babydoll dress had a different purpose than what it's seen as today. My problem is that these things have a different reputation now. I think the origins of these things needs to be discussed but I don't believe we should wave them away just because they started out innocent.
this is so long😭 i'm so sorry lol omg
its insane that someone who can perfectly describe the infantilization of women and concede that a lot of carpenter's aesthetics are pulled from pedophilic expressions of gender performance will then completely lose the plot at the end.
i found it especially interesting that sabrina carpenter, the sex symbol, the woman who performs sex positions during her concerts and ends the tour off with witty outros about sex is supposedly the popstar dream of a young girl, as if thats supposed to convince people that it isnt a pedophilic performance in nature. furthermore, what "separates carpenter from stars like kate moss and britney spears" arent their ages. thats what separates how exploited they were, but sabrina intentionally plays into nearly the exact same performance they do: she is still performing an expression of youth. She is an adult, yes, but playing into the blurry line between girl and sex object is still playing into that blurry line. She is not "old" by any stretch of the imagination. she *is* ambiguously youthful. she doesnt show signs of age. she is a young adult. she can express her sexuality, but it is undoubtably weird to do it while wearing babydoll dresses and whatnot. she is intentionally referencing that "vintage girlhood", which make no mistake, was designed by film directors and photographers, not real depictions of girls at the time: it was designed to be highly sexualized.
If youre choosing to both present in pink, ribbons, babydoll dress, pigtails, and as *you* say, "traditionally girlish emblems", and perform sex positions and jokes while youre doing that, its going to be taken as pedophilic. theres no way around it.
Stars of the past have turned expressions of femininity into an art, and one way or another that turned into expressions of youthful, girlish femininity either by their own volition or through being exploited. doesnt mean that that art is respectable. art is truly the most powerful piece of propaganda.
I can agree at least with everything youve said up until trying to walk around the issue of sabrina portraying a femininity that has been designed by pedophiles. pink ribbons and bows and frills and innocence up until *teenage years* is not only *not* the default expression of a girls childhood but its also a pretty artificial one.
hope you grow out of that bias.
I agree with you. I don't believe Sabrina to act like this in private or with her friends. I believe this is her alter ego. But the fact she is showcasing this as how the majority of people perceive her as is heavily concerning.
Incredible analysis!!! I love the conversation happening between yours and Jade’s pieces. Both of y’all have brought up incredibly well researched points that point to the complication of femininity, gender, nostalgia and fashion.
It feels like there is absolutely no way to win as a woman in the public eye, especially under capitalism and patriarchy. For millennia, the aesthetic expectations of those designated as non men have always been based on inferiority, control and subjugation.
I don’t know if it’s possible to find an expression of femininity that is untouched by patriarchy, whether it’s leaning in or fully rejecting it. I long to know what girlhood and womanhood might have been if created in a vacuum, untouched by misogyny, pedophilia and white supremacy.
Sabrina looks grown to me and is doing grown woman shit in frilly dresses. If she was actually a child or doing babyish things, I’d be all out guns blazing. The reality is a grey area of agency vs. complicity within gender norms that are ultimately based on sexism.
how often i’ve repressed my own desire for a more girlish, feminine style so as not to cater to the male gaze nor cause an uproar of women berating me for doing just that. where is the middle ground
I really appreciate all the points you cover in this essay! Particularly the comment about how childhood motifs on adult bodies don't always receive equal treatment across the board.
Personally, my observation has been that there is a general disdain (online, at least?) for the signifiers of "hyper-femininity" which, well, tends to include frills and pink and ribbons! I believe this comes from adult women wanting to reject the relentless propaganda that they are only worth their youth by drawing a hard boundary on things that feel caricaturishly youthful. It's interesting, because just as much as people talk about girlhood and nostalgia, there's concurrently an open rejection of things that lean "too far" into girlhood and nostalgia. It's just that not everyone agrees on what counts as "too far" because not everyone wants to give up pink and ruffles just because they've suddenly "aged out" of access.
A few months ago, I put some thought on this when developing my own post on ways that existing alternative fashion subcultures also indulge in "childlike" and hyper-feminine fashion motifs in a way that isn't meant to be self-infantilizing either. My own style falls under this category, andthe added layers of how race impact into who gets to be "dainty" or "soft" make all of this a very nuanced conversation. (Like, in my case, it feels subversive to lean into hyper-femininity as a black woman bc it's *not* the aesthetic that's been historically 'assigned' to me/us. I get that it's not subversive for Sabrina though, but just like I would still want to be respected if I DID lean into the tropes that are associated with my identity, I feel like she deserves that option too?)
Basically, I really agree with the point about micro-managing women's expressions of femininity. I really think that's what is happening here: women are (with good intentions) micro-managing the aesthetics of others and over-policing themselves about what's "okay" and "grown enough" to wear. But this conversation gets tired because there's no true logic to it. People argue that certain hairstyles can be "too grown" just as they argue that pink is coded "too young." Not everyone subscribes to these ideas, and the insinuation that it's weirdo behavior to wanna ignore the contradictory nature of it all to me just seems... silly.
I respect that Sabrina has a defined style she seems content with, and who knows how it'll evolve as her career goes on. Again, I really appreciate what you have added to the conversation around what's problematic and the intense scrutiny women are under when it comes to beauty. So thank you for writing & sharing this!
incredible work on this one
i hope it gets a million likes
🫶🏻
Sabrina's styling decisions, like you said, are clear references to older popular media. I think what firmly separates her from accusations of 'pedo catering' is the way she carries herself, and her clear control of every aspect of her image. Carpenter is a businessman first, and she doesn't hide her engagement in the writing and production process of everything directly associated with her projects and image. I have a respect for her that I don't have for pop stars like Ariana Grande, who fits herself into the popular mold of the hour, and feigns naïveté in interviews to avoid some level of accountability. Carpenter's styling choices often smash themselves into the realm of camp as well! Her makeup is highly glamorized, her shoes are insanely tall, her outfits are often rhinestoned and paired with shiny dancer's tights. A large part of her public image is a clear performance, influenced by older theater and cinema, and she doesn't pretend like it's natural. Of COURSE it's over the top, often falling into comedy or parody, and that clearly performative aspect of it all is like a wink and a nod to her audience. Femininity is a performance, and she's acting out the childhood pop star fantasy, i agree!
No mention of the infamous “I’m full grown but I look like a niña” outro… garbage article
Garbage article because it doesn't mention one time she made a joke in a performance? You skimmed past the 20 paragraphs because it didn't mention this thing she said at one concert, that has nothing to do with the actual subject, that being her branding and public image? Get a grip on yourself. You too Chloe Olivia Aley. Both of you need to behave.
On top of the jokes she's also given handcuffs to children at her concerts.................................................
I really wonder about how people like you function in real life.
Personally, by not being weird around children 🤷🏻♀️
And asking a sixteen year old if they were horny knowing they were sixteen
That's what I'm saying!!!!!
thanks for this. the substack post you referenced definitely rubbed me the wrong way when i first read it, but i couldn't really put my finger on it. you did.
I don't really understand why people are rubbed the wrong way by it. Sabrina has made some very serious and concerning jokes. The nonsense outros for instance.
I guess it depends on the bar you set for pop musicians. I didn’t personally like the Nonsense outros but how is it any different than any other song about sex, drugs, etc that we’ve got in the last several decades of pop music? music has always pushed the envelope when it comes to that stuff. especially most recently, WAP by Cardi B & Megan Thee Stallion.
as this essay said, the Skims campaign and the W mag shoot were a bit sus. I agree with that, especially the sprinkler photo. Men want women to seem youthful and as a result of this being deeply rooted in our culture, women also want to seem youthful and applaud other women for it. but if we want to rally against it there’s much more we have to dismantle than a 25-year-old wearing pastel lingerie and talking about blowjobs.
Sabrina Carpenter is getting flack because she is naturally petite and wide-eyed. i’d be surprised at anyone complaining about it if she were 5’10. take it up with Melanie Martinez’s music circa 2015 if you want something to complain about lol
they’re referring to the outro where she made a comment about looking like a child, though. i didn’t think there was any merit in the criticisms of her until that, which really weirded me out.
Okay, apply this same energy to men who write songs about having sex with teen girls then.
“I don’t believe that micro-managing the aesthetics of femininity is a path to liberation. And I find this entire conversation to be slightly annoying.” - ICONIQUE 🫡🫡🫡
No mention of the infamous “I’m full grown but I look like a niña” lyric I see… bad article with a clear motive to make this pedo baiter into a feminist icon when she is most definitely not. Examine her outros and get back to us
did we read the same essay ? where did the author write that sabrina is a feminist icon ? or make any implication of such ? please re-assess the article and re-assess your reading comprehension skills
I think you are focusing on the wrong part of this comment. Those nonsense outros are very concerning.
In the original article, the author does address the bizarreness of Sabrina's choices to emulate a specific aesthetic of 'girlhood' under the male gaze. The author calls into question the sexualization of girlhood and who is really culpable for it. Surely, it is not Sabrina. I'm not focusing on that part of the comment because no where in the essay does the author 'defend' Sabrina's choice. Rather, the article is an analysis of the misappropriation of the conceptual framework of 'the male gaze'. I ask the commenter, and you as well, to re-assess your reading comprehension skills to reflect on how you both got to the conclusion that this is an essay 'defending' Sabrina Carpenter, rather than an essay that provides historical context to this specific aesthetic and how the micro-managing of female aesthetics is problematic in a society that hinges on violence against individuals who are socially-coded as women.
I wrote in another comment that none of us are worried about Sabrina Carpenter as being a victim of pedophilia, she is an adult woman. Instead, many are putting the blame on her as an adult woman instead of holding systems accountable for the sexualization of socially constructed emblems of girlhood. She is playing into the male gaze as the male gaze is inherently infantilizing of women, thus it is unnecessary to construct a 'pedophilic gaze'.
Rather than focus on this as being the point of the article, I am assuming that you and other commenters logic is reduced to being 'concerned' about young girls emulating Carpenter. This falls into the logic of "What was she wearing?", a logic of a patriarchal culture that looks to justify why some feminine coded individuals are 'appealing' whilst evading any culpability for the patriarchal + white supremacist + colonial society that perpetuates this. I hope that clarifies and makes sense to you!
Haha well... All I can say is two things. I actually have a pretty good reading comprehension. You have a poor first impression of me. And even though Sabrina apparently is not trying to sexualize minors by making jokes about minors, people who have not seen her shows or have heard her deep voice have only seen pictures. If I have only seen a picture of Sabrina on stage, I would be a little concerned. Everyone has a different opinion and it is often hard to make that opinion come across correctly online. Again, my reading comprehension is just fine, thank you, I just simply don't agree with you.
I see that you struggled to comprehend the comment I just left, as this is not a matter of opinion on a celebrity but a matter of analyzing society - have a good rest of your day!
I'm not even going to answer you. Haha you just keep jabbing the wound and apparently think I can't comprehend. No, I can, and you obviously can only comprehend a portion of text and not the full text.
You're falling into a misogynistic trap without realising it. She cannot change the fact that she has big eyes and cheeks or that she's 5 feet tall. These are immutable aspects of her body that do give her a certain childlike appearance. Does this mean she's not allowed to express herself sexually as an adult woman? That's stupid.
Also. If you've only seen a picture of her on stage, why would anyone care about your concerns? Do women now need to perfectly aligned with your gaze at all times should they not be "concerning"? Just ridiculous and frankly smacks of jealousy and internalised misogyny and I despise it.
the entire point of the post and this comment explaining it to you has flown way over your head. if you did comprehend it why are you leaving comments making it seem like you don’t understand whatsoever. that is an extremely patriarchal view that women who look a certain way by nature are somehow to blame for perpetuating a pedophilic aesthetic and cause for “concern” simply because they’re short and doe eyed. i suggest you reread both the essay and the above comment because that person took a lot of time to break it down for you.
you created your account 10 minutes ago. nice sockpuppet.
"nice sockpuppet" ok! i re-state please learn how to read! please elaborate on where it is implied that sabrina is a feminist icon.
edit: sorry, i made a substack account to reply to these dumbass comments. why would i put 'native american bitch' in my bio lmfao
the entire article expressly states that the author dislikes the idea that sabrina plays into a pedophilic fantasy via her aesthetics. which the author then concedes that some of her aesthetic choices do fall under that category, and yet still they defend her aesthetics as a whole through strange logical and rhetorical inconsistencies. either way, you are still a sockpuppet trying to bully people who disagree with you into feeling like the minority.
so nowhere in the article does the author designate sabrina as a feminist icon
oh nope its not outright said. but im not the person who claimed that. you just got really combative at the idea that sabrina does any wrong. we still know youre a sockpuppet.
EXACTLY. im noticing theyre also treating this "vintage girlhood" as if it were a real thing they actually experienced and not an artificially created aesthetic by pedophiles in the 50s. unless they were imitating sex symbols and popstar icons no one naturally experienced the "kittenish pink frilly girlhood". they were just propagandized into really liking it as an aesthetic despite its pedophilic intentions. especially weird to outright say that sabrina carpenter, a person who they themselves admit is a sex symbol, is everyones "girlhood fantasy popstar".
I agree with you. I want an analysis of those outros cause they are not okay at all.